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a long one car type train
dispatcher
post Sep 16 2007, 03:09 PM
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Since I posted the original question about single car type trains, I have been doing some experimenting. I found if you designate one track in the destination region the same track type as the source track, you can build, in this case, a coal train of any length. Obviously you must be able to afford designating one track to just one car type. In my case, the designation yard had plenty of 40 car and more tracks so I was able to designate one to coal loaded only.


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sgdavis
post Sep 16 2007, 03:53 PM
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QUOTE(dispatcher @ Sep 16 2007, 04:09 PM) *
Since I posted the original question about single car type trains, I have been doing some experimenting. I found if you designate one track in the destination region the same track type as the source track, you can build, in this case, a coal train of any length. Obviously you must be able to afford designating one track to just one car type. In my case, the designation yard had plenty of 40 car and more tracks so I was able to designate one to coal loaded only.


Dispatcher



That would work, great discovery! The suggestion I made earlier (did you see it? At Long one car trains) should also have worked. That was, if the track you want to use as a "Source" track is designated as supplying cars of the type you want, such as, cars of type CL, then you could leave off designating ANY source tracks and just designate that track as an Industry track, then set the max to pick up from a single siding and the max cars to handle to as long as you want your train to be.

Still another approach, if you didn't want to build your train, would be to start with cars already on your train (set the number of cars in the initial train to a number the same as the number of cars you want in your train). Then set up one or more Industry tracks later on to service that want CL or CLMT (for Coal or Coal Empty). Doing that you should get a train of all one type of car (in this case coal).

Thanks for sharing your discovery!

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highdesertdave2
post Sep 17 2007, 05:13 PM
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Hi, I too am trying to builded a coal train to run from Ashville to Spartanburg.

My problem is getting enough loaded coal cars on the tracks that I designated for the coal train. I have 5 tracks with loaded coal cars in the Ashville yard ok. But AG won't put more than 10 or so cars on any of these tracks, I put 80 for the max of the train and 40 for each of the pickup tracks but AG only gave me 52 cars all together on the five tracks I designated for the coal train.
Is there some way to get AG to give me the amount I need (70) on these tracks to make up this train.
Highdesertdave.

QUOTE(sgdavis @ Sep 16 2007, 02:53 PM) *
That would work, great discovery! The suggestion I made earlier (did you see it? At Long one car trains) should also have worked. That was, if the track you want to use as a "Source" track is designated as supplying cars of the type you want, such as, cars of type CL, then you could leave off designating ANY source tracks and just designate that track as an Industry track, then set the max to pick up from a single siding and the max cars to handle to as long as you want your train to be.

Still another approach, if you didn't want to build your train, would be to start with cars already on your train (set the number of cars in the initial train to a number the same as the number of cars you want in your train). Then set up one or more Industry tracks later on to service that want CL or CLMT (for Coal or Coal Empty). Doing that you should get a train of all one type of car (in this case coal).

Thanks for sharing your discovery!

Your host,

Steve

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jrmeindl
post Sep 17 2007, 07:16 PM
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QUOTE(highdesertdave2 @ Sep 17 2007, 06:13 PM) *
Hi, I too am trying to builded a coal train to run from Ashville to Spartanburg.

My problem is getting enough loaded coal cars on the tracks that I designated for the coal train. I have 5 tracks with loaded coal cars in the Ashville yard ok. But AG won't put more than 10 or so cars on any of these tracks, I put 80 for the max of the train and 40 for each of the pickup tracks but AG only gave me 52 cars all together on the five tracks I designated for the coal train.
Is there some way to get AG to give me the amount I need (70) on these tracks to make up this train.
Highdesertdave.



In my design of a path for the Glorieta Pass route, I faced the same issue running a train from the Kaiser Coal Mine to Belen. I was never able to get the maximum amount that I had set originally for train size. My solution was to set 4 sidings aside just for coal cars that had the capicity equal or greater than what my train would be in the Belen Yard. I also removed the marker cars I had there so the sidings were only able to accept setouts. Before I removed them, I would sometimes get a pickup even though I set it up not to.

Jim
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sgdavis
post Sep 18 2007, 07:00 AM
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QUOTE(highdesertdave2 @ Sep 17 2007, 06:13 PM) *
Hi, I too am trying to builded a coal train to run from Ashville to Spartanburg.

My problem is getting enough loaded coal cars on the tracks that I designated for the coal train. I have 5 tracks with loaded coal cars in the Ashville yard ok. But AG won't put more than 10 or so cars on any of these tracks, I put 80 for the max of the train and 40 for each of the pickup tracks but AG only gave me 52 cars all together on the five tracks I designated for the coal train.
Is there some way to get AG to give me the amount I need (70) on these tracks to make up this train.
Highdesertdave.


Hi Dave,

I am traveling so I won't be able to access this route or template until I'm back on Friday. However, with AG4 you can see the capacities that the template designer set up for each track. Could you tell me, for the tracks you are only seeing 10 cars per track on, what the template designer's track capacity is for those? I don't mean how LONG the actual track is but what the number of cars is that is set for the template.

If the template can allow more than 10 cars on each of those tracks but you are only getting 10 that sounds like a bug in AG which I will need to fix. So let me know the answer to this question and when I'm back home I'll run this template and see what is going on. If it's an AG4 problem I'll fix it with an update.

Thanks,

Steve


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sgdavis
post Sep 18 2007, 07:03 AM
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QUOTE(jrmeindl @ Sep 17 2007, 08:16 PM) *
In my design of a path for the Glorieta Pass route, I faced the same issue running a train from the Kaiser Coal Mine to Belen. I was never able to get the maximum amount that I had set originally for train size. My solution was to set 4 sidings aside just for coal cars that had the capicity equal or greater than what my train would be in the Belen Yard. I also removed the marker cars I had there so the sidings were only able to accept setouts. Before I removed them, I would sometimes get a pickup even though I set it up not to.

Jim


Interesting. If you'll email me your Glorieta Pass template in progress I will check this behavior. Also please tell me the exact tracks you were using. Could be some limit in AG4 that I need to do away with, since HighDesertDave is reporting a similar problem.

I probably won't be able to get this figured out until the weekend but it's possible I can work on this while traveling.

Thanks,

Steve


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AT RR
post Sep 18 2007, 11:16 AM
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Steve,
Good afternoon, I don't know if this is a related problem "bug". When I filled some yard sidings at LV oak island with more than one seed car to get a good car type fill, I was looking for the same type of chem tanker for that one siding. I noticed when I left the world fill at default some sidings will fill to the point they will run down the yard ladder fouling the turnouts but not the path.
The strange thing is when I run the activity it runs fine, one would think if the cars exceeded the siding markers it would crash.
What it looks like is the maximum car pick up /set out setting is multiplying the seed cars by the max setting number.

Peter


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nbeveridge
post Sep 18 2007, 04:48 PM
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QUOTE(AT RR @ Sep 18 2007, 05:16 PM) *
Steve,
Good afternoon, I don't know if this is a related problem "bug". When I filled some yard sidings at LV oak island with more than one seed car to get a good car type fill, I was looking for the same type of chem tanker for that one siding. I noticed when I left the world fill at default some sidings will fill to the point they will run down the yard ladder fouling the turnouts but not the path.
The strange thing is when I run the activity it runs fine, one would think if the cars exceeded the siding markers it would crash.
What it looks like is the maximum car pick up /set out setting is multiplying the seed cars by the max setting number.

Peter


Uhhh . . . what route? What template?

Also, why more than one seed car? [This could lead to an interesting discussion.]

If the seed car is placed such that cars added to the back end will be longer than the end of the siding, then you will have this very thing happen. Sometimes it WILL crash the activity, if the car string is down a spur to a dead end. But down a ladder track, there is nothing in MSTS which would cause a problem until the car string either overlaps another item of rolling stock or runs out of track. Depending on player train movement, you might have track switches cycling under the car string, which may have unfortunate results if you try to move the string. If it blocks a path for an AI train you may get part way through the activity, with the player train at a different location at the time the AI train hits the car string, and have MSTS bomb out on you, and you won't even know why. Steve's instructions for placement of the seed cars is pretty specific (somewhere around page 32 of the AG manual). Placement of a seed car elsewhere will have unexpected results.

I don't even want to imagine all the scenarios possible with more than one seed car per track. Many of them will result in the activity crashing.


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AT RR
post Sep 19 2007, 07:02 AM
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QUOTE(nbeveridge @ Sep 18 2007, 10:48 PM) *
Uhhh . . . what route? What template?

Also, why more than one seed car? [This could lead to an interesting discussion.]

If the seed car is placed such that cars added to the back end will be longer than the end of the siding, then you will have this very thing happen. Sometimes it WILL crash the activity, if the car string is down a spur to a dead end. But down a ladder track, there is nothing in MSTS which would cause a problem until the car string either overlaps another item of rolling stock or runs out of track. Depending on player train movement, you might have track switches cycling under the car string, which may have unfortunate results if you try to move the string. If it blocks a path for an AI train you may get part way through the activity, with the player train at a different location at the time the AI train hits the car string, and have MSTS bomb out on you, and you won't even know why. Steve's instructions for placement of the seed cars is pretty specific (somewhere around page 32 of the AG manual). Placement of a seed car elsewhere will have unexpected results.

I don't even want to imagine all the scenarios possible with more than one seed car per track. Many of them will result in the activity crashing.


Norman,
When I said two or more seed cars I should have said a 2 or more car seed consist not individual cars. It's the same as putting all the extra cars you want to see in the activity on one track so the program will see them. In this case I put a string of tank cars on a north oak island yard track as it next to Doremous Ave which has a string of tank farms. This is route is the Newark Jersey City Railroads. The string is set at one end to fill down the track to the other end. The yard track fills down to the end as it should and then start backing out the starting end.
What is strange as I have used this method many times before as the one stop shopping method and have never seen the problem.
In the past all the tracks have been single ended but the north and south oak island yard tracks are double ended could the program be missing the end (odd) track marker. I think I just answered my one question I have not loaded the latest AG4.2 and remember that one of Steve's updates had to do with the second track marker.

Thanks for yor time.
Peter


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sgdavis
post Sep 19 2007, 07:33 AM
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QUOTE(AT RR @ Sep 19 2007, 08:02 AM) *
Norman,
When I said two or more seed cars I should have said a 2 or more car seed consist not individual cars. It's the same as putting all the extra cars you want to see in the activity on one track so the program will see them. In this case I put a string of tank cars on a north oak island yard track as it next to Doremous Ave which has a string of tank farms. This is route is the Newark Jersey City Railroads. The string is set at one end to fill down the track to the other end. The yard track fills down to the end as it should and then start backing out the starting end.
What is strange as I have used this method many times before as the one stop shopping method and have never seen the problem.
In the past all the tracks have been single ended but the north and south oak island yard tracks are double ended could the program be missing the end (odd) track marker. I think I just answered my one question I have not loaded the latest AG4.2 and remember that one of Steve's updates had to do with the second track marker.

Thanks for yor time.
Peter


It sounds like you have the capacity in your SWLTDB file set higher than the actual siding capacity. Also let me know if AG4.2 helps.


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sgdavis
post Sep 19 2007, 07:38 AM
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QUOTE(AT RR @ Sep 18 2007, 12:16 PM) *
Steve,
Good afternoon, I don't know if this is a related problem "bug". When I filled some yard sidings at LV oak island with more than one seed car to get a good car type fill, I was looking for the same type of chem tanker for that one siding. I noticed when I left the world fill at default some sidings will fill to the point they will run down the yard ladder fouling the turnouts but not the path.
The strange thing is when I run the activity it runs fine, one would think if the cars exceeded the siding markers it would crash.
What it looks like is the maximum car pick up /set out setting is multiplying the seed cars by the max setting number.

Peter


Peter,

1. It sounds like you have the track capacity in the SWLTDB car higher than the actual siding length.
2. The number of cars in the "seed" consist shouldn't make any difference. Also it doesn't help (or hurt) to put a lot of different types of cars on a track. AG fills based on first searching through all the cars in the entire activity that are the correct type, then, placing a number of those cars on the track. So whether you had 5 different tank cars on the spur as seed cars, or a single box car, doesn't make any difference -- as long as you have all the tank cars you'd like to use, defined SOMEWHERE as type "T" or whatever you're using for tank cars.
3. Overflowing sidings as long as the cars don't go off the end of the "world" (i.e., as long as they have somewhere to go) won't crash the sim. You might run into them when you run a train though.
4. It's possible that there is an error in your template where the same track is listed twice. I've seen that before. Then what happens is AG fills it twice causing an overflow.

Thanks,

Steve


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AT RR
post Sep 19 2007, 09:45 AM
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QUOTE(sgdavis @ Sep 19 2007, 01:38 PM) *
Peter,

1. It sounds like you have the track capacity in the SWLTDB car higher than the actual siding length.
2. The number of cars in the "seed" consist shouldn't make any difference. Also it doesn't help (or hurt) to put a lot of different types of cars on a track. AG fills based on first searching through all the cars in the entire activity that are the correct type, then, placing a number of those cars on the track. So whether you had 5 different tank cars on the spur as seed cars, or a single box car, doesn't make any difference -- as long as you have all the tank cars you'd like to use, defined SOMEWHERE as type "T" or whatever you're using for tank cars.
3. Overflowing sidings as long as the cars don't go off the end of the "world" (i.e., as long as they have somewhere to go) won't crash the sim. You might run into them when you run a train though.
4. It's possible that there is an error in your template where the same track is listed twice. I've seen that before. Then what happens is AG fills it twice causing an overflow.

Thanks,

Steve


Steve,
Thanks for the input, you may have hit on something. When I first set up this template I could not generate an activity between the some of the north and south yard tracks. The problem was some of the sidings ends that faced each other inbetween the two yards generated the same alternate track marker numbers. On north yard tracks I had to change some of the alternate marker number up one digit to get the activity to work. The end of the siding that faced the south yard confused the program when it saw the same marker for two sidings. The strange thing is the cars are flowing out the normal track marker end. If it turns out to be a problem I will just take the tracks with a problem out of service and use the siding as a pass thru track. No one will miss the tracks as one yard has 10 tracks and the other 8 tracks with a car capcity of 287 cars.
As you can see if you maximize the world fill these two yards could choke the program. Due to the size of the yard Ihave them in different regens so if you work south or north out of the yard there will be less load on the system

Thanks.
Peter


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highdesertdave2
post Sep 19 2007, 07:35 PM
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Ok Steve here goes.

This is the Saluda route, Ashville south tracks 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and an unnamed track.

The unnamed track holds 23, I got 12, track 2 holds 13 I got 8, 3 holds 11 I got 6, 4 holds 11 I got 7, 5 holds 18 I got 8, 6 holds 18 I got 10.

Tracks 5 and 6 were set for 8 cars but I changed them to 18. All these tracks can hold at least twice what they're set for.

All these tracks are marked as industrial tracks and I changed them to coal loads only.

I set the train max at 80 and the pickup tracks at 40.

Well that is about it Steve hope this helps you. Dave

QUOTE(sgdavis @ Sep 18 2007, 06:00 AM) *
Hi Dave,

I am traveling so I won't be able to access this route or template until I'm back on Friday. However, with AG4 you can see the capacities that the template designer set up for each track. Could you tell me, for the tracks you are only seeing 10 cars per track on, what the template designer's track capacity is for those? I don't mean how LONG the actual track is but what the number of cars is that is set for the template.

If the template can allow more than 10 cars on each of those tracks but you are only getting 10 that sounds like a bug in AG which I will need to fix. So let me know the answer to this question and when I'm back home I'll run this template and see what is going on. If it's an AG4 problem I'll fix it with an update.

Thanks,

Steve

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AT RR
post Sep 21 2007, 06:11 AM
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Steve / Norman,
I checked the capacity of the sidings and the SWLTDB and all the sidings are under capacity as to the number of cars and the marker to marker length of the siding is also ok. Remember this is an older "legacy" route and I have found little bugs in the past. I'm half way in the process of testing the pick up and set outs of all the sidings for the new / updated template after I finish the task I will load the current version of AG and test the problem areas . I don't like to update programs mid stream on making a template it keeps the flow of doing the work inline.

Have a good weekend,

Peter


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sgdavis
post Sep 24 2007, 05:55 PM
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QUOTE(AT RR @ Sep 21 2007, 07:11 AM) *
Steve / Norman,
I checked the capacity of the sidings and the SWLTDB and all the sidings are under capacity as to the number of cars and the marker to marker length of the siding is also ok. Remember this is an older "legacy" route and I have found little bugs in the past. I'm half way in the process of testing the pick up and set outs of all the sidings for the new / updated template after I finish the task I will load the current version of AG and test the problem areas . I don't like to update programs mid stream on making a template it keeps the flow of doing the work inline.

Have a good weekend,

Peter


Peter,

In an earlier post you mentioned that you had to change some of the siding numbers to get AG to work. That was required before the latest update to AG, but now with more recent versions it can actually CAUSE problems. The problem comes into play if a given siding has one number for the "track #", and another siding has that same number for the "alt track no." (or vice versa). My recommendation is to use the latest version of AG and, if necessary, re-create your SWLTDB file and do not change any of the siding/track numbers. With the latest version AG will correctly identify both siding numbers assigned to each siding and if a car is on a track it will be identified as being on the correct siding. What could have happend is a siding got cars added to it twice, because it was listed on one line of your SWLTDB file having the track number where a car was placed, then in another line that same track number comes up as the Alt Trk No. and so the program fills twice, thinking this is two different tracks because the line in SWLTDB is different.

I hope this makes sense. If not please let me know how I can clarify. Bottom line: with AG 4.2 or later, use the track numbers the program assigns for you when you push the 'Create Track CSV File" button.

Thanks,

Steve


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