Will the templates for the Scenic sub have to be changed for Version 2?

I have not decided whether to pick up this one. The previous version of the route had some serious problems which limited the template functionality. I have heard from no one who has the new version of route as to how well signals and track switches function. If you have the route, perhaps you can comment???

The activities provided with the ugrade have some serious problems - standoffs, cornfield meets, etc. I am no expert, but it seems the signal problems are still there, as you can get a clear leaving a siding, only to succesively get approach, then a restrictive before reaching the next passing siding. Usually the cornfield meet happens then.

Hi to all,

While slowly preparing to move in about 5 weeks, I have been able to get the upgrade this week-end. The route looks pretty good to my point of view and the stock as well. The sounds, to the words of the Railyard, are very rich and it is true. Norm, I am ready to have a look into the signalling issue for a possible template, if you don't mind and don't expect to tackle it again as you've done with v1. I have already set the markers and the EB Template ready to test the traffic patterns. I have already done a test run as far as the Scenic siding. However, my PC crashed while waiting for the train while toggling modes. This upgrade will be more demanding in resources.

Here's some pics taken during that first run on the EB template, including the first and successful meet at Gold Bar:

Hi to all,

I have re-generated the Scenic EB act and finally reached Wenatchee with 5 meets along with no problems. The player path has been set to remain on the main while the traffic takes all the sidings. The only inconvenience (maybe for some) is the one that when the player train has to wait for the oncoming train on the main rather on the side. In real life, it is more realistic to have the waiting train take the siding. But here, the current path arrangement will ensure clear passage. Also to remember it is 50/50 the chance for waiting for a train. On the other way, the Ai is already on the siding and waits for the player train to clear. A small inconvenience compared to ensured continuity of the act.

Here are some shots of the run

The first meet at the very beginning at Mukilteo (start with a 55-car load)


The next two closing the Scenic area



Exiting the 7-mile cascade tunnel (takes about 20 minutes to cross)


At Berne


Towards Merritt


Successfull meet with a grain load at Merritt


Another meet at Cashmere


Reaching Wenatchee


Will keep on testing to make sure there is no hidden problem elsewhere. For those who have the update, your comments about the route will be welcome and may help with testing

Hello to all,

I have also tested the traffic for the WB template and successfully done the activity with four meets along with no problems. It took close to 4 hours to complete. The WB act: Pickup of 55 cars at Wenatchee with the final spotting at Everett A1& A2 sidings.

Some shots of the WB run and 2 of the EB (The first two)

At the beginning of the run from Everett

Another path beginning at Mukilteo via the Everett Jct waiting for a local bound for the Boeing plant further south

At the Wenatchee shops for the start of the WB

Past Cashmere

Towards Merritt

West of Merritt

Foss River area

The meet at Skykomish

Arrival at Everett

The final setout of cars at the A1 siding to end the activity


So, overall it looks good for anyone who wishes to go on with a template for this one, in regards with the traffic issue

Hi to all,

I have moved this week-end and am slowly rearranging things in the house. It should take about a week or two and am glad the moving is now done.

Since my last post, I have decided to go further in working out one template package since no one seemed to have forwarded to have one done for the route. At my last post, I have made the EB and WB templates which are mostly a straight run from point A to point B, except with some possible work at Gold Bar. The next phase is the LOCALS templates. Up to moving day,I have been slowly "crawling" bit by bit, had to scrap the initial LOCALS template and follow the same pattern as did Norm with having a LOCALS along the West Slope and one for the East Slope of the mountains.

Because of traffic stalls which come with a return player path, The WEST SLOPE LOCALS templates had been split in two (EB and WB). It is the same approach as for the one done with the Mactier route. The first half goes from Everett to Skykomish and the other half goes the other way around. The return trip starts where the EB had finished. At Skykomish, the player train is expected to make a runaround using the main to re-connect with the cars (up to 20 at start, cars picked up on your way East) and proceed back home to Everett. You will have to use the track monitor to make sure your reverse points disappear before reversing. An EB AI is slowly approaching Skykomish and you must proceed quickly (within the speed limits of course) to clear the main before proceeding ahead EB to Wenatchee but is expected to wait at the next signal if late.

Along the WB return trip, I have encountered what has been said about the signalling problem, here at Gold Bar. You will be able to see some of the shots taken relating this issue. I have written to Jason Dilworth of Streamlines about the problem and have sent him three screenshots to explain the issue. Every time after any work in one area, make sure to save your act. If you encounter after the Green a STOP and PROCEED signal, reload the previous saved act, wait for the AI and once passed, proceed ahead with your activity.

I have successfully done the WESTSLOPEEB and WESTSLOPEWB templates and the generated acts reached their destination with all the expected work done.

I am including screenshots in two parts: first for the EB and the second part for the WB, including the signal issue at Gold Bar
Picking up cars in Everett


The next two for two different EB acts at Snohomish




Working at Sultan


At Goldbar


The remaining shots at Skykomish




The WB in the next post.

Screenshots from the WB
The next three for the runaround at Skykomish for the return WB home






The oncoming EB after the runaround


Past Baring after some work done there


At Gold Bar


The signalling issue at Gold Bar. Have reloaded the saved act (just before leaving Gold Bar and waited for the EB AI to clear before proceeding ahead WB
The first image taken just before discovering the issue

Here you can see (on the Track Monitor) the STOP and.. confirming presence of the oncoming EB AI

You can see the oncoming EB has a green signal despite the presence of the player train here


After some work in Monroe, the final load prepares for the final setting at Everett


Next on the list: whether the Everett-Bayside LOCAL of the EAST Slope LOCAL

Hello to all,

The Scenic 2 ( v2.01) templates are now finished. It has not been an easy task to work out a package despite the signalling problem but I believe this one will deliver. Eight templates are part of the package. Four (4) for the East and West Slope templates. EB and WB templates, a YARDS template and one depicting some local work between Everett and the Bayside area and the Boeing plant. I have finished a detailed readme file. The user will be encouraged to read carefully its content before using the templates.

I have done some testing but would like some additional testers to check the whole set. If some of you wish to test the package, let me know here in the forum or by E-mailing me at:
photoman_57 [at] hotmail.ca

Here are some more pictures from the activities.

2 Geeps climbing the grades toward the Boeing plant


Working the cars inside the plant


Local leaving Everett for the Bayside area


Local toward the Boeing plant via the Everett Jct waiting for a passing EB


The Bayside area


At Winton preparing its return home


Near Leavenworth


At Wenatchee to pickup cars for the East Slope local work


At Dryden


Preparing some yard work but must wait for two trains to clear (EB and oncoming WB)


Will continue testing the multiple templates and will prepare the package for the testers.

Will update later

Hi to all,

The Scenic 2 template package has been sent to Steve tonight and should be released soon. Creation of the template set has been a difficult one because of the signalling issue and also the route is very hardware intensive. The second issue has been experienced a few years ago with both the NS and Southern's Saluda route templates. Users will need a strong computer to run the route and the templates.

A lot of work has been done and am satisfied of the results, despite the 20-25 crashes encountered during testing, done with a Dual-Core PC. Stronger computers should be better in handling the route. There are 8 templates and up to 70 serviceable sidings.

Be on the lookout for its oncoming release in the templates page.

Cheers

Denis,

THANK YOU for your hard work on this! What a gorgeous route and a tour de force of template design! This has now been posted to our Templates page, direct link is http://www.skylinecomputing.com/downloads/...%20Template.zip

Thanks again,

Steve

Hi Denis - where are you getting your consist files for SLI.Freight. They did not come with the route version 2 and I can't find them . also all the RTTX and DTTX cars are missing too. SLI says they are from version 1 of the route and do not come with v2. Have you a list of them and download info. If so that should be posted on the AG forum, so we can get them to make the acts work. They show up in AI consists as well as in the acts themselves. I just get error in train store and cannot load.
Please advise
Thanks
Ted

Hi Ted,

The consists included in the Scenic 2.01 files were not used under their original names for the templates package, rather those shown here included with the zip files:



Many of them used the same configuration (simply renamed for the templates) and other consists were completely new to the package.

The only additional downloads used for the templates are BNSF (new logo) ore hoppers (bnsfore.zip)and also special cars for the Boeing plant (boeingac.zip), both mentioned in the readme file. All the rest is part of the SLI Scenic 2.01 package

Some of us may have purchased the complete v2 route with the 2.01 update. In my case, I have purchased initially the BNSF Scenic 1.0 a few years back, then have purchased the v2 update ( less expensive than the complete package) and finally added the 2.01 patch to complete the update. Results should be identical in both cases.

The container cars seemed to have come from v1 as I have loaded the original 1.0 route to check its content. Make sure that the original 1.0 is loaded first, then v2 and finally the 2.01 patch, unless you have purchased the complete v2 set.

Hope this helps Ted

Cheers

Denis - that is what I was trying to tell you. I have purchased the version 2 -and it DOES NOT contain the freight cars from V1. So- how do I get the cars needed for the template that you have made using version 1 cars??? SLI just told me -the cars are npot included in v2. Help!!!!!

Ted,

If I recall, you do have Activity Master. With that in mind, it's an easy fix. Run Activity Master and change out the cars that you are missing, in the activity templates, with something you have. You should then be able to generate activities without any issues. I've done that a few times when I don't want to download all the stock that was used for a particular template.

Jim

+That is a ridiculous solution in this case. I just bought the route brand new. It doesn't work with the template. So now you want me to spend HOURS switching out cars for 8 templates, to get it to work(as it has to be done for each act).
What about the next 100 people who buy the v2 route and it won't work with these templates. I too, have switched cars out before, but in this case it is a "must" for the future, to have the cars made available.
Let me ask the forum now- how many of you (us) have Scenic Sub Version 2 (not using v1+update)????
Ted

I really don't think it's a ridiculous solution. I was looking at getting the template(s) to run. It shouldn't take HOURS to swap out what you don't have if you use a rolling stock list to pair down the choices to be made. Anyway, each to his own.

Jim

You missed the whole point, Jim, it's not just you and me.
Ted

I have done further checking in both the original and the update that I have kept in a DVD.

Here's what I've found: Installation of the v1 route created a folder named SLI.FREIGHT as Ted specified and contained all rolling stock which was part of version 1. It includes in the set BNSF and TTX containers and TOFC's.No change for the engines which were kept in the same folder for both v1 and 2 (named SLI.BNSF)

Then, I have installed the v2 update separately and have found a new folder named SLI_BNSF_FREIGHT. Here it contains additional cars and the missing DTTX and RTTX files Ted referred to and, after examination of the SLI.FREIGHT folder, are absent in version 1.

That means that, for those who have installed v1 first, then the v2 update you should have two (2) folders (SLI.FREIGHT and SLI_BNSF_FREIGHT) in your trainset folder which hold all the rolling stock.

I have checked my MSTS folder containing the route and both folders are present in the updated route.

For someone who have purchased the full route, are both folders present or they have done the merging of all rolling stock in one single folder? Any feedback would be welcome.

That will definitely help in answering the issue.

Thanks

4

I have only 2 files pertaining to scenic 2. I have the third but there is on CN cars in it See Attach. For example - check your Scenic2Traffic9.con and match the cars against the ones in SLI.FREIGHT - they are not there.Click to view attachment.Freight.gif][attachment=62
SLI_BNSF_FREIGHT.gif]

Information provided by Ted is conclusive of the problem we have with the full install and the Updated version as to the placement of some of the rolling stock in the TRAINSET folder.

In the full install version of the route (as I see the screens provided by Ted), all the rolling stock is included in the SLI_BNSF_FREIGHT folder while the updated version of the same route have some of the rolling stock remaining in the SLI.FREIGHT folder

The present template has been done using the original and upgrade to version 2 of the route. Editing of the consists (CON files) created with the current template contain the name of the file and its location within MSTS. Since the location of some of the files differ in both situations, this is the reason Ted has problems with missing consists. That means Ted has the full install version of the route, hence the current issue.

The consists for the updated version of the route will be edited and modified to take into account the location of the rolling stock in the full install version. I will be sending to Steve an updated template package as soon as possible, the complementary consists package for the full install version and some additional details in the readme file to address the issue.

Thanks

Ted,

Here is included as an attachment the modified consist files for the full install version to replace the other consist files you have.

Can you check it out and confirm they are OK with your version. I will wait your reply before sending an update to Steve.

Thanks

Denis

Thanks Denis -I will run some acts today and tomorrow, and see how it goes. Will advise. Ted

Here is 1st one - SCENIC2EASTSLOPELOCALEB see attachmentClick to view attachmentissing_cars1.txt]

here is 2nd one SCENIC2EASTSLOPELOCALWB -see attachClick to view attachment

Okay this is the last one... redid SCENIC2EASTSLOPELOCALEB , but this time with no AI traffic. I also copied the file SLI_BNSF_ Freight and pasted it into SLI.FREIGHT, but there are still cars missing as you can see by the 3rd attachmwnt. Also engines missing. I guess we have to have the complete rolling stock files from V1, (Which I requested from Streamlines - and so far have been ignored)
I don;t know what else to do, Denis - back to your court...Click to view attachment

Hi Ted,

I have found out something else which will have to be changed also. All the default ACT files contain all the markers for which have also their proper location, most in the SLI.FREIGHT folder All ACT files will be edited to change the location to the SLI_BNSF_FREIGHT folder.

As a write, I am creating a mini route which will contain only the Scenic 2 full install configuration. I will load the actual template set with the corrected consists and will work to make the changes. All the stock in the SLI.FREIGHT folder will be transferred to the new SLI_BNSF_FREIGHT folder, just the way it has been installed with the new configuration. I may find some additional messages and will try to correct the problems. Once everything is clear, I will probably upload a second template for the full install route.

Will get back as soon as possible hard at work with this.

see next post

Hi again Ted,

I have noticed the absence of the BNSF_8_40B_8621 and the 8630's in your SLI.BNSF folder . I have checked at SLI and looked at the description of the rolling stock included. It looks that they were scrapped with the v2 full install.

Will have to change instead to sd40-2's

More to come

Thanks

The Template package for the Scenic 2 Upgrade Route has been updated, removing the Dash 8-40B's and being replaced by SD40-2's. Also I have made the same with the full install version. I have re-edited all CON and ACT files and have changed the folder name reference for all rolling stock to the SLI_BNSF_FREIGHT folder from the SLI.FREIGHT folder.

My findings and information from Ted seem to suggest that installation of the v2 upgrade over the original v1 did not delete the Dash8-40B's. That is why I used them in the templates, believing that both installations should end up with the same product, which don't seem to be the case here, in addition to the Folder issue.

I am including what I believe should be the final update for those using the v2 Full install route.

Can you Ted give it a shot with the following attachment? Let me know of the results.

Once confirmed, I will send an updated template package which will include the complementary files for those using the full install route.

Thanks

Thanks again Denis, will give it a try tomorrow
Ted

Sorry big D, but these cars are still missing from V2 (see attach)Click to view attachment
Engines look OK now and puts SD420's as player consist, but these cars are only in V1
I guess the .csv files have to be edited. for example - the V2 list 2 BNSF centrebeam cars by number, eg. 12345678, but the act calls for "centrebeam1" and "centrebeam2", and no "husky" cars either. you can see by the attach
Ted

Hi Ted,

Thanks for your quick feedback.

I am considering re-installing from zero the route, that is v1 first and then the upgrade to have a double check at each phase and trying to make sure my earlier installation of the route was properly done. It is unfortunate I don't have the full install version to compare. I will make again the comparison with your list of engines and rolling stock inside both folders, they are the SLI_BNSF_FREIGHT and the SLI.BNSF folders. Once done, I'll figure out the next step to do with the template update.

Ted, can you resend me the complete rolling stock list inside the SLI_BNSF_FREIGHT folder. I cannot read the cars on the extreme right.

To those using the v1 and the upgrade, if your MSTS folder contain the SLI SCENIC2 (BNSF_Scenic folder) route (and no other SLI routes) in your ROUTES folder, can you confirm the presence of both SLI.FREIGHT and SLI_BNSF_FREIGHT for the freight cars in your TRAINSET folder? I would like some feedback from others as well.

For those using the full install, like Ted and with the same conditions as above, can you confirm the absence of the SLI.FREIGHT folder in your TRAINSET folder.

That will help. Will try to figure out the next step.

Thanks

Denis

Hi Denis - here is the BNSF_FREIGHT file Click to view attachment

Hi again,

I have made a parallell installation in a mini-route folder of the v1 and after the v2.I have looked at all the TRAINSET folders in v1, then in v2 and made comparisons. After, I have compared with Ted's folders for the Full install version.

Here's the rundown for the Freight rolling stock: the v2 upgrade installation has left the SLI.FREIGHT folder (from v1) untouched in the TRAINSET folder in addition to the newly installed folder named SLI_BNSF_FREIGHT (v2). The Full install installed only the SLI_BNSF_FREIGHT folder. Being unaware of the difference (nobody would have noticed it unless havng both upgrade and full install versions), I have used all stock from that folder. That means that the 40+ pieces of stock used from the SLI.FREIGHT folder are not being used in the full install version. Ted's intervention has shed light on differences found between the upgrade and full install versions. Trying to change the stock in all 8 templates would become a major headache.

Also as found earlier, the Dash8-40B were not installed in v2 as it was in v1 and v2 added SD70MAC engines.

This leaves two options : scrap completely the current Scenic2 upgrade version template package and re-create a new template package with only stock from the v2 for all users (upgrade of full install) or leave the current v2 upgrade template available for our v2 upgrade users and create one specifically for the full install version.

I believe this is the first time I experience this with a upgrade version vs full install version of any route.

From here, I will listen to your comments and will figure out what's the best to do with this issue.

Thanks

Well. I already asked for a refund from SLI (and was ignored) with the intention of reordering the V1 plus the update, but guess I am stuck with V2. Anything you decide Denis is Ok, but keep in mind the future buyers that won't understand why the AG won't work. As I told Mr. Meindel, it's not about now - it's about forever.
Thanks for you efforts to date. Ted (usually happy in railroading)

Denis - this is the latest from SLI help desk. So if you are leaving the templates as they are now, I can buy the V1 route for $13.50 to get the rolling stock. If, however, you decide to revamp the templates to work with V2, then I will stay with what I have. Your pick -obviously less work for you, but will still be confusing and expensive for future buyers of V2. (this Chris guy doesn't seem to realize that they messed up by changing the stock) Ted

Date: 2011-07-08 00:40:25
Name: Chris Nelson
Message:

Ted,
The Scenic Sub version 1 is still available for $13.50 on the website, and it comes with all the rollingstock you'd need. As such, it isn't really fair to ask me to pass along rollingstock for free that you would have to pay for. It is not the fault of StreamLines that the makers of the activity templates messed up, so why ask us to pay for their mistakes?

Kind Regards,

Chris Nelson
Stream Lines Corp. - Helpdesk

This isn't really a technical problem that we can fix at Skyline Computing so I've refrained from posting. But given the amount of discussion on this and at Denis' request I am weighing in.

The way I look at it, Denis did a lot of work creating this template, as a hobby and favor to the MSTS/AG community, for no reward or profit. He used the rolling stock he had and was simply unaware of the fact that Streamlines included a different set of rolling stock in their 2.0 version than they included in the 1.0 version. An honest oversight, I wouldn't even go as far as to call it a "mistake".

Now Streamlines is trying to make a profit from creating these products which is their right and in fact as a hobbyist I support that: if they don't make a profit, they won't be able to continue creating routes and rolling stock of such a high quality that we can all enjoy, since doing that requires some level of staffing and investment. I am not sure if their descriptions made it clear that V2 contained different rolling stock than V1 - if they didn't, that is something I'd be miffed about. If they want to sell these as two separate rolling stock packs they have every right to do that, many others do, but they should make it clear.

Now the template end user also has a right to expect that if he/she follows the directions and installs the template, it should run. It is our goal as the software designer and template creators to do our best to insure that happens. To me there are a number of possible fixes, all equally good in my mind:

1. Denis reworks the template to contain only V2 rolling stock.
2. Denis reworks the readme, only, to state that users need to install both V1 and V2 to get all the rolling stock rolling stock packs needed to run the template, OR, the user must use a utility like ConBuilder, RouteRiter, or Activity Master to modify the template to include only the rolling stock on that user's hard drive. Also best case Denis would include a list of all rolling stock used.

But of course Denis is offering his time, creativity and efforts for free for this community and is not obligated to follow any of my suggestions.

So I see no harm or foul here, just a bunch of well-meaning folks all with different expectations. There are many fixes, none of them bad. Some throw the effort on the template creator (Denis), some throw the effort on the end user. Worst case the end user either deletes this template, adds Streamlines' V1, or uses a utility to solve the issue on his/her machine.

Thanks,

Steve

Hi to all,

While the comments were coming and I thank Steve and Ted for their output, I've done some thinking on my own about what to do now. Since it is better to have only one template package for both type of installations of v2, that is the update and full install, I have asked Steve to scrap the current template on the templates page. Keeping the current set and adding one for the full install will add confusion to which template to use if two templates are present.

That means sadly the end of the current Scenic2 upgrade template set.

But wait, there is more....



I've decided, against all expectations to take the bull by its horns and have successfully restored today the EB and WB Templates while keeping all the current template files present. Now the stock present is only the ones from the SLI_BNSF_FREIGHT and SLI.BNSF folders. The 8-40B's engine files and the SLI.FREIGHT folder have been removed from the TRAINSET folder. There has been a lot of careful editing of each of the consist files (CON) to replace the missing cars with the current stock used in the full install version. My version of Conbuilder (2.73) helped me to proceed with the change. The missing cars were replaced by a corresponding piece of stock in the new version. It took some time but has been a success. That was the first step, done yesterday.

Second, I have also edited inside the EB Template Activity file (ACT) with Wordpad to replace all the missing stock markers with one car of the current stock and of its proper location (folder in the MSTS folder). Once done, I have copied the EB template ACT file to a different folder and renamed it WB ( since the markers are the same in both directions) and have done some editing and used the MSTS AE to complete the change. The SWLACT, SWLTDB files were also edited in replacing the stock as well and to check the attributes of each of the sidings to make sure it still relevant. I have rechecked the CTP file and had to make some changes since some of the stock in v1 (like the reefers) are absent in v2, that needed to change some of the attributes in the SWLTDB files.

I have generated and started successfully activities in both EB and WB with the new stock

If everything goes as planned, the same procedure will be applied for the other six templates but it will take some time to do. Work on this can be compared to any surgical operation: it is a precision and delicate job. But the end of it will make it a brand new package for which both the upgrade of full install user will enjoy.

Let's hope I'll be able to make it to the finish line with a new set. Glad I can see now some light at the end of the tunnel. Time will tell.

Will update later.

Denis,

This is really above and beyond! Thank you so much, on behalf of all the AG users who will benefit from your efforts!

Sincerely,

Steve Davis

Denis - you da MAN... as I said before, anyway you decide to go is OK with me, and this is super. Thanks. I look forward to the end results.

Ted

p.s. Steve - if you have any pull with SLI, maybe you could get them to rename V2 to V3 as it is NOT the same as V1 +update= V2
(might save a lot of confusion down the line)

Well, I am happy to announce that the restoration process is over and the template package has been fully restored and should work perfectly with the v2 update and full install versions. That is without the SLI.FREIGHT folder stock and without the B40-8's, all removed from the template required stock. I have already sent tonight to Steve the package to be uploaded to the templates page. I have done some minimal testing with all templates since it has already heavily tested with the first package. Have done the complete SLG-EB template actvity with the same results as with the first one.

Be on the lookout for it and would like some feedback from those who will be using it.

Thanks and enjoy the set,

Just to confirm that Steve has uploaded the new template package to the templates page.

Let me know if issues with the new set.

Thanks again Steve and enjoy the new package